Yes, thanks to writer Kedar Sharma's encouragement, I too learnt to type in Nepali
this past week-end in about an hour.

Yes, that's true -- in about an hour.
Was amazed by the experience.
Did not know that Nepali typing in Unicode was/is so easy.

I would recommend this to you all, if you don't know this nice little secret
already.

As they say, a good thing like this is to be shared widely.

oohi
ashu

>डा. पार्थिवेश्वर तिमिल्सिनाको संयोजकत्वमा डा. मनप्रसाद वाग्ले, डा. वासुदेव काफ्ले, डा. गोविन्द आचार्य, डा. विशालनाथ उप्रेती, डा. प्रद्युम्न काफ्लेसहितको कार्यदलले परिषद्मा सुझाव प्रतिवेदन दिएकोे थियो ।

अगाडि डा. झुण्ड्याउने गद्दारहरु।
Shame on you!

It's easy to get all wrapped up over nationalism.

But some POLITICALLY INCORRECT to say but fact-based kura about Nepali bhasa are these:

a) Nepali bhasa has NO standard grammar of any sort. This fact gives serious translators and those working on language-to-computer projects nightmares. This
lack of grammar also means that our works of literature, great by our national standards, are dwarves whe compared to the best of regional and international
writing (in English). No wonder Samrat's success is envied by those who write in
Nepali (which few people read) in Nepal.

b) Nepali is very colloquial and full of slangs. On formal occasions, Sanskrit or Sanskritized words have to be used heavily. Such Sanskrit words do NOT come easily to many Nepalis for whom Nepali IS the second language.

c) Nepali has a severely limited vocabulary to express complex, complicated thoughts (for evidence: refer to medical anthropologist Ian Harper's quoting Anil Bhattarai in the book "Nepal Researchers in the UK" edited by Pratyoush Onta). This is one reason why I, for one, believe Nepali bhasa is simply incapable for producing world-class philosophy, mathematics and art: the level of abstractions needed for such disciplines is simply not supported by our language tools.

d) Nepali is what many otherwise mathematically smart but lingusitically not-that-smart Nepalis FAIL in large numbers every year, causing them much needless grief.

e) A good command of Nepali bhasa does NOT give anyone a decent job in Nepal, except in Nepali-bhasa-only situations.

f) After studiyng Nepali bhasa for 10 years, and after passing all the exams, young STUDENTS should be allowed to focus on other job-related subjects such as science and math and the arts while keeping Nepali as an optional subject to pursue.

I myself write in Nepali (for some Nepal-based newspapers) as a HOBBY on the side;
but I would NOT force others to write in Nepali too.

oohi
ashu

यि राम्ररी नेपाली लेख्न/बोल्न नजान्ने पश्चिमा डिग्रीधारीहरुले हाम्रो भाषामाथी हुनसम्मको अन्याय गरे। भाषा संस्कृतिको महत्व नवुझ्ने यस्ता वुद्धिजीविलाई गद्दार नै भन्नुपर्छ। बरु अरु विषयको परिक्षा अंग्रजीमै दिने, नेपाली चाहिं ११, १२ र १३ मा अनिवार्य गर्ने भन्नुपर्छ नि। एउटा राष्ट्रिय भाषाको सम्मान गर्न नजान्ने वुद्धिमा विर्को लागेका वज्ज्याहरु।

Ashu, scraping the subject from Higher School curriculum does not rectify the shortcomings of Nepali language you have identified. Longer the students read and write in Nepali, better is the chance of improvement in their accuracy and fluency.Recommendations for improvement in linguistics works, not the scraping of the subject itself from syllabus. It seems, those people in the panel are western educated like yourself and lack fluency in Nepali. Otherwise, their decision is unjustifiable. Our experts lack multi-dimensional approach and therefore their policy fails.

Newuser,

I can't speak for others, but if it's is any consolation to you, it was in the West that I learnt to understand and appreciate the East (i.e. Nepal) -- a fact for which I remain grateful.

To me, dropping Nepali language from the Class 11 syllabus or keeping it as an OPTIONAL subject has NOTHING to do with nationalism or lack thereof -- but it
has everything to do with helping to position young students better in an
increasingly competitive college and job markets (which do NOT reward, in general, Nepali-bhasa-related skills).

It's sad to see some so-called nationalists using this as a battle ground to prove their sense of nationalism. In Nepal, these nationalists will NOT face much opposition
because people are afraid to be branded as being against Nepali bhasa (even when they are NOT and even when their arguments are based on practical considerations) . . . leading many young Nepali students to suffer.

oohi
ashu

'To me, dropping Nepali language from the Class 11 syllabus or keeping it as an OPTIONAL subject has NOTHING to do with nationalism or lack thereof '

It has nothing to do with nationalism to me as well. Why can't you see language as something that is different to and more important than nationalism? I don't see the inclusion of Nepali in class 11 making any bad impact on the students learning process or whatsoever. We are talking about a single official language of a country where more than 90 percent people understand one language and that is Nepali.

'everything to do with helping to position young students better in an
increasingly competitive college and job markets (which do NOT reward, in general, Nepali-bhasa-related skills). '

Again this is utter non-sense. Nepali teaching in high school level - class 9,10,11 is just of a basic standard. It provides the students the oppurtunity to learn the basics of Nepali language. Still, majority of university graduates of Nepal, can't properly communicate with village folks. They can't work at their full capacity in communities, because of poor language. Imagine how disastrous it becomes when, its omitted from 11 now. You don't have to trash your own language to learn others' language.


I know why you are insisting in favour of this absurd, unyeilding recommendation. But it's not very helpful for your won personality to trash things that you have relatively little knowledge about. Better try to taste the flavor of Nepali literature as much as you can.

Nepali language is one of the greatest symbols of Nepali people. Its something lot more than ultra-nationalism. The erosion in Nepali language triggers the erosion in Nepali identity. Learn to explore the essence of your own language as well. Nobody is subduing the importance of English and other foreign languages here.

Newuser writes:

"But it's not very helpful for your won personality to trash things that you have relatively little knowledge about. Better try to taste the flavor of Nepali literature as much as you can."


Newuser,

Let me explain. You are a journalist. Can you stop attacking me personally for NO reason like your ideological friend Nepe does?

Look, because I use my own name and FULLY stand behind ALL my postings, there is
an in-built incentive for me to tell the truth and NOT post bullshit on Sajha.

Everything I post here can be VERIFIED and CHECKED by you and others -- so,
yes, I do KNOW what I am talking about.

Before you judge others, do some serious homework and then let evidence reach your conclusions.

Here's a link for you to go through to understand how much I have read/known about Nepali literature. FYI, in the last four years, I've read about 60 per cent of the books that appear on the list (which was given to me by Khagendra Sangraula).

- http://gbnc.org/sajha/html/OpenThread.cfm?forum=4&ThreadID=8293


oohi
ashu

(sorry for repost but seems very appropriate here as well)

I see two groups of people here in sajha. First group is very open minded and questioning supported by logic and reasons, while the second group is closed minded and prejudiced.

It's interesting how the second group supports each other and tries to form a alliance, while the first group is mostly observing details and pointing out illogical, unreasonable and contradictary statements made here or in public.

When the 2nd group sees someone making a statement in conjunction with thier prejudices, they don't waste time in WAH WAH's, but as soon as they find out that someone's views are contrary to theirs, they form a multi pronged attacks. They start calling names and even make ill reference to a posters PARENTS when they feel they cannot sustain a reasonable debate. These people, since they are prejudiced to their bones think everyone else would be prejudiced to their bones as well. That is why, they catagorize anyone not of their prejudiced mentality as being oppositely prejudiced - whereas the sad fact is that they are just closed minded to recognize any open minded thinking.

The 1st group does not believe in forming alliance since they are only observing inconsistencies and mostly post things that they deem are inconsistent with logical and reasonable common understanding. They believe that it is limiting one's horizon to have a closed mind and will not be shut by the attacks of the closed minded.

The closed minded however fail to open at the urgings of the open minded.

The battle of the OPEN and CLOSED minded people continues...

OK good. Your distaste of the language had made me suspicious about your Nepali reading, but if you have read all those books, thats very nice.

Sorry that you took my comment as a personal attack. Was it any kind of attack though? I was just emphasizing you that your support for the recommended omission is uncalled. Compulsory Nepali in class 11 is the only oppurtunity for a Nepali student to read a couple of complete literary works. Otherwise, their reading is limited to single chapter from various authors. Students should be encouraged to learn their own language as much as other international language. मेरो आशय त्यत्ति हो।

You were a bit harsh on Nepali language not only in this thread but in couple of others as well. I was just pointing at that. Be happy with what you have read.

On the policy of removing compulsory Nepali from higher education curricula, I am more with my ideological rival, Ashu.

I think High school Nepali is enough for students to appreciate the language and continue learning and, if they like, creating literature on their own.

Since the policy is not to scrape Nepali off the curriculum, but to make it OPTIONAL from COMPULSORY, those who are interested can still benefit from the curriculum.

I love Nepali language. I am most comfortable with it. I hate English. But I think we will be better off helping mastering this most useful international language than forcing Nepali language to unwilling 11th graders. The first is necessity, the second just a luxury.

Between all yo wise cracks, let me put down some of my views. I never been good in literature. Bearly made it out is SLC in classes involving literatures. There are so many others of my kind. Does this mean that we represent the group that is useless in the society. Definately not. There are so many other things people are good at and kinda contribute to the society. Enforcing anything is not good. Courses should be designed in the way that students can decide what good for them aand select the fields. I really hate the Nepalese school of thought where good studets gotta choose scince and be doctors and engineers. Give students more choice.

अब साझामा नआए पनि भो।

नेपेजीको पनि बुद्दी सकियो।

नेपाली भाषामा आई एस् सी पढ्न सकिन्छ कि सकिन्न, नेपेजी?

नेपालीले जापानीमा पढ्न सकियो यार। चाइना गेऽर चाइनिजमा पढ्छन्। रुस गेऽर रसियनमा पढ्छ्न्। भने नेपालमा एउटा विषयको रुपमा लिनु नराम्रो भो?
यो अनिवार्य छ गहिरो रुपमा सोचेर फेरि तर्क दिनुस्।
हैन भने अग्रेजी पनि फाल्दिए हुन्छ , ८ कक्षाबाट नेपाली अग्रेजी जम्मै फाल्दिए भैहाल्यो नि।

सबैलाई भाषाबिद हुनु छ र?

Ddagirijee,

यो आशु भन्ने मान्छे बिछुक रछ । यसो मिल्ती गर्न परो भनेर आको, बोली भुँईमा खस्न पा छैन, नेपेको बुद्धि तुरिएछ भन्ने भनाई खान परो दादागिरीको । धेत !

दादागिरीजी, यो अकिञ्चन नेपे अंग्रेजी-पिडित विज्ञानको विद्यार्थी हो । अंग्रेजीमा ५३ अंक ल्याएर SLC पास (गणितमा त ८३ ल्याका थेम नि फेरि) गरेर अस्कलमा I.Sc. पढ्दा ६ महिना सम्म भुतो भाङ केहि बुझ्या भए मरि जाम । कति पल्ट त आई I.Sc. लाई आ एस्सै छोडेर फर्किम कि I.L. तिरै भन्ने सुर नचड्या कहाँ हो र । मैले Law क्याम्पसमा ६ महिना पढेर छोडिदिएको भने मैले ? कुरो के भने मैले आफ्नो प्रतिभा र व्यक्तित्व (फटाहा र चलाख भन्या नि) लाई सुहाउने त Law नै हो भनेर ल क्याम्पसमा भर्ना भा' थें । भर्ना त भईयो, तर बसि खान देनन्, जान्ने सुन्ने आफन्तहरुले । 'लौ हेर, १० कक्षामा फस ब्वाई भा नेपेको बुद्धि बिग्रेर Law पो पढ्न थालेछ' भन्ने गुनासोले कान टट्टाएपछि कानमा कपासमात्र हालेर हिंड्न बाँकी थ्यो ।

अनि Law लाई चटक्कै माया मारेर हालें दरखास्त तीनतिर- पुल्चोक, महाराजगञ्ज र अस्कलमा । नाम निस्को पुल्चोक र अस्कलमा । पुल्चोकमा परिवन्दले भर्ना हुन पाईएन । पुल्चोक क्याम्पसको धागोमा OK र तपाईहरुले हरुले धुमधाम मच्चाउदा मेरो पनि केजाति 'हिङ नभए पनि हिङ बाँधेको टालोको' सम्बन्ध छ पुल्चोक क्याम्पससंग भनेर छिरम कि जस्तो लाग्या थ्यो । फेरि अर्कैले उडाईदिया प्रेमिकालाई सम्झे भाँती सम्झेर के अमिलो बनाम मुन भनेर थामिएँ ।

अब अस्कलको दुखेसो त सुनाई हालें ।

यो सप्पै बिर्तान्त सुनाको किन भने, आई एस्सी नेपाली मै पढ्न पाए क्या खास्सा हुन्तो भनेर यै नेपेले भन्नु पर्ने होईन र ?

किन भनेन त ? ल गम खानुस् दादागिरीजी ।

म चाहि एक फेरा यस्सो Nepaldemocracy@googlegroups तिर हावा खाएर आम्छु ।

Ashu,

There is NO any direct relation/correlation between LANGUAGE and NATIONALISM. LANGUAGE is a medium to exchange ideas and views among the actors of the society which are very important for the development of any socioeconomic sectors. Language is not for only Ashus but for majority of countrymen--- How many Ashus are in Nepal now? (Less than 0.005%?). Callow judgments over the MOST SPOKEN language is the result of OVER SMARTNESS and BIG SHOW OFF-- as Kathmaduties had some one/two decades ago.

Nepali language has a very standard grammar as better as English. There is NO any serious problem for direct translation between English and Nepali, for those who do not hesitate to learn Nepali Grammar. Of course, the people who do not want to study or feel shy while studying it must have such problem---similar to all other language.

YES, Nepali Language has many slang. That's why it is very pleasant and friendly and easily understandable. We have very clear formal counterparts of these slang---so, there is no problem in formal writings. Sanskrit is the origin of South/East Asian languages---starting from Nepal to Thailand, Cambodia and even Japan. Sanskrit/Nepali has plenty of vocabularies and there is ZERO chance of falling in the voids to express any views or ideas except for those who do not study it.

Most of the Nepalese fail in ENGLISH, not in NEPALI. Get real please !!!

Ashu, you have a profit-oriented mind. Language is not for direct profit. NONE of the languages gives the JOB. BUT, it has a countless impact in the socioeconomic development. Compulsory Nepali in 11th Grade does not bar any students to make progresses in JOB-oriented disciplines. It is for the better communication with Nepalese communities. If a Nepali can not communicate in sufficient detail and exchange views and ideas, there is hardly any contributions from him or her for the cummunity development.

If you are really serious and, not making fun here to show your English proficiency, please go through standard Nepali Grammars and Sabdakosh. Reading books just for finishing does not help you to improve your Nepali Language. You have to be serious to learn and give some time for it.
------
OK

Yeh Ashu, try राम्रो रचना: मिठो नेपाली by कृष्ण प्रसाद पराजुली to begin with.

नेपेजी तपाईंको जमानाको भन्दा अहिलेको अंग्रजीमा निश्चित रुपमा वेसी सुधार भाछ। कमसकेम बग्रेल्ती खुलेका वोर्डिङ्ग, एफएम रेडियोका एकोहोरो आलाप, अंग्रेजी वोल्दा ठूलो भइने शहरिया आनिवानीले अंग्रेजी भाषाको स्तरमा केहि न केहि वृद्धि गरेकै छ। तर नेपाली भाषा त अति नै खस्किसक्यो, त्यता पनि त विचार पु-याउनुप-यो नी। आजभोलीका स्नातक, स्नातकोत्तरहरुलाई ए एउटा निवेदन लेखन त नेपालीमा भन्यो भने त्यै पनि आउँदैन। सत्ते म आँफैलाई हम्मे पर्छ। शहरका सयमा पचास जना बीच बीचमा अंग्रेजी नघुसाई वोल्नै सक्दैनन। यस्तो वेलामा लगभग सम्पूर्ण जनसंख्याले बुझ्ने, अधिकांशले बोल्ने आफ्नो राष्ट्रिय भाषाको आधारभूत शव्दरचना र व्याकरण सिकाउने विषयको एउटा जाँच उच्चशिक्षामा एकपटक अनिवार्य दिनु पर्ने व्यवस्थाले विद्यार्थीमा कुन चाइने मनोवैज्ञानिक दवाव पार्छ र ?
प्राविधिक विषयमा भाषागत विकास नहुनाले गाह्रो भयो रे तर एकै विषय एकपल्ट दिंदा त त्यस्तो वढि भार (overload) नहुने पर्ने हैन र भन्या ? बरु विज्ञान नेपालीमा पढाउँदा विद्यार्थीको पढाईमा वाधा पुगेको भए एक कक्षा देखिनै अंग्रेजीमै पढाए ठिकै होला तर नेपाली भाषाको सहज लेखन र वोलीचालीलाई शुद्ध र अक्षुण राख्न कमसेकम ११ कक्षासम्म एक विषय नेपालीमा त हुनै पर्छ जस्तो लाग्छ है मलाई त। नत्र भोलीको पीढिले न त शुद्धसंग नेपाली वोल्न जान्नेछ, न त सामान्य रुपमा लेख्न नै जान्नेछ। अहिले नै नेपाली भाषाको जात्रा भैसक्यो, अझै चरणवद्ध रुपमा यसलाई सिमित गर्दै जाने हो भने त हाम्रो मौलिक भाषा नै लोप हुन्छ गाँठे।

Ok and Newuser,

I love Nepali bhasa as much as you do. Why, many of my friends in Nepal are sahitya-kars and writers and artists (with whom I enjoy discussing many things).

Meantime, please also read:

-http://guild.sajha.com/guild/read.cfm?guildid=78

So, let's not question one another's love for our maatri bhasa, all right?
That is NOT the issue here.

At any rate, I have requested (via email) the concerned authorities for some data
(spanning the years 2000 to 2005), and I will base my conclusions re: the pass/fail rates
and what other relevant numbers tell me.

If the numbers tell me a different story, I'll be happy to change my mind.

On another note, since Kedar-ji, who's a good friend of mine and for whom I have a lot of respect and who is a regular participant here on Sajha, and who's also one of the leaders for this "Keep Nepali Bhasa in Class 11 curriculum" movement, perhaps, time-permitting, he would care to share of his thoughts on this issue in the spirit of Sajha kura-kani where debates and discussions make up the lifeblood of this site.

Nepe, I am delighted to note that you and I are on the same page on this issue.
Here, let me raise a toast to this historic agreement! :-)

oohi
ashu

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xQ]/L . em08} la;]{sf] . xfd|f] afnfO klg ca e/tk'/ lt/ k7fpg' k/f] Tof] Nof8=j]h OlG;6\o'6 df . e/v/ ;f7L k'Ug' ef] . s] yfxf cem} aL; jif{ af+Rg' xf]nf . ljh'nL / kfgLsf] aLn k9\g klg c?nfO{ k};f s] ltg'{ .

गुणज्यू,

हि हि हि ! हन कुरो त्याँ सम्म पुग्या ता छैन है । नेपाली भाषालाई निमिट्यान्न पार्ने भन्या त छैनन् नि । दश दश वर्ष सम्म त पढाउने नै हो नि, हैन र । त्यो जाबो एघारौं कक्षाको एक वर्ष न हो, त्यो पनि ईच्छा लाग्नेलाई त पढाउने नै भन्या छन् । १७ वर्ष उमेरका वालिग (सरदर) हरुले हाम्लाई त पुगो, अब बरु अर्थोकै पढ्छम भन्छन् भने दिनुपर्छ भन्या त हो नि । त्यति पाका विद्यार्थीले आफ्नै कान्छीनानी खनखनि गनी हाम्लाई हाम्ले चाहेको, हाम्ले बढी उपयोगी ठानेको विषय पढा भन्छन् भने सरखारले चैं बर्चेट, खाए खा नखाए घिच् भनि नेपाली विषय नै कोच्च्याउने कुरो त मनासिब लागेन है मलाई ।

फेरि मैले माथि भने नि, दश दश वर्ष त अनिवार्य गरेर पढाउनी भनेकै छन् नि । भन्नाले पन्ध्राना-सोह्राना को मामला भएन र यो ?

न्यूयजर, दादा, तपाईहरु बबण्डर मच्चाउँने सुरमा हुनुहुन्छ ।

न्यूयजरले एउटा जायजै बुँदा अघि सा-या थे । नेपाली साहित्यिक कृतिको कुनै पुरै पोस्तक पढ्ने किंलास नै एघार हो, त्यस अघि ता एक-दुई अध्याय वा छोटा मसिना कथा-कुथुंग्री-शिलोक पढ्ने ता हुन् नि भनेर ।

तर मेरो तर्क के छ भने, एघार किंलासमा त्यस्तो अवसर नपाएका विद्यार्थीले आफ्नो स्वाध्यायनमा नेपाली वाङमयका कुनै पूर्ण कृति पढ्ने छैनन् भन्ने कुरा पनि ता छैन नि ।

मैले ऊ त्याँ माथि भने नि, दश दश वर्ष नेपाली भाषा पढेसी यस भाषाको पारख गर्न र साहित्यको स्वाध्यायन वा प्रतिभा भएकाले साहित्य रचना गर्न सक्षम हुन्छन् । साझाका यतिका नेपाली साहित्यकारहरु मध्ये लु कसकसले आफुलाई एघार किलासले मद्दत पु-याएको दावी गर्दा रान्, हेरुम ।

एघार किलास भन्या त साहित्यको रस्वादन गर्ने हैन, व्यावसायिक उपयोगिता भएको विषय टुप्पी बाँधेर, पटुका कसेर पढ्ने ट्याम हो है, मेरो विचारमा त ।

आशु,
"तिमी भाँड हौ।"

आफूपनि भाँडिनु भो नेपेजीलाई शुद्द भँड्याउनु भो।
बाँदरले आँफुले पनि घर बनाउँदैन, अरुको घर पनि बिगार्छ।

यसो गर उसो गर, मेरा साथिहरुले गर्दैछन्।
यसो गर उसो गर, मेरा साथिहरुले गर्दैछन्। गरेर देखाउ न अनि बल्ल "आशु तिवारी"।

मान्नुपर्छ आशुलाई, नेपेलाई भाँड्न सकेकोमा :)